Which Do You Need More?
From the start, with Understanding Chaos, I have focused on many of the technical aspects of getting a project a done. Anigen, for the most part, did the same thing, and when it starts up again, likely next month, it will continue to do the same, but as recent discussions show, there is another aspect which plagues the mind of the indie which has not been covered quite enough. I'm talking about all the things that become important on the back end. At least, it seems, that's where most people think they become important.
I've been putting together an intensive course. You could say it goes beyond Concept to Reality. Naturally there's plenty of video and it will include lots of content for use or study, character models, sets, motions, scenes, layers for compositing exercises, you name it. But when all these things are done, the creator naturally wants all of it to be seen.
When I did Understanding Chaos and got such an incredible response, I did things a particular way, but the internet world is very different now. Working with a publisher like TOKYOPOP, I learned some great secrets to promoting and launching a product, and some, too often, overlooked things you absolutely must do if you hope to get it out there, build an audience and take off. On top of that, working at a film studio like UFO for nearly three years, I learned even more do's and don'ts on getting it done and getting eyeballs on it. Sometimes knowing what not to do can be as important as knowing what to do.
My question to you is, which are you more interested in? Which do you need more? Do you need more modeling, texturing, compositing and creation material? Or do you need more material on how to build that thirsty crowd that is waiting for the launch of your production?
I've been putting together an intensive course. You could say it goes beyond Concept to Reality. Naturally there's plenty of video and it will include lots of content for use or study, character models, sets, motions, scenes, layers for compositing exercises, you name it. But when all these things are done, the creator naturally wants all of it to be seen.
When I did Understanding Chaos and got such an incredible response, I did things a particular way, but the internet world is very different now. Working with a publisher like TOKYOPOP, I learned some great secrets to promoting and launching a product, and some, too often, overlooked things you absolutely must do if you hope to get it out there, build an audience and take off. On top of that, working at a film studio like UFO for nearly three years, I learned even more do's and don'ts on getting it done and getting eyeballs on it. Sometimes knowing what not to do can be as important as knowing what to do.
My question to you is, which are you more interested in? Which do you need more? Do you need more modeling, texturing, compositing and creation material? Or do you need more material on how to build that thirsty crowd that is waiting for the launch of your production?
29 Comments:
Wow, that's a hard choice. Can't we have a little bit of both, lol? Well, I guess I'm going to pick the latter. I have plenty of resources for teaching myself the dirty production techniques but I'm more blank when it comes to promoting and marketing a product.
I pick the latter choice: in terms of content creation, I think I'm reaching my peak as far as techniques/knowledge that I learned/needed to start creating my film. (only exeption to that is terrain/enviroment creation, but I've been mostly doing 'trial and error' right now, going back and forth between Lightwave and Vue to get the backgrounds I want)
Definately sounds impressive, though, this course you're planning. :)
I'd have to say the best thing might be finding that audience. The ups and downs, like you mentioned at UFO films and other venues. The dos and dont's. The what and what nots. We are interested in it all!
So please share your knowledge.
Then I want to know how you get Vue to look the way you do. :) Toon look in Vue. :)
I'm going to say...building thirsty
crowd. There is a lot of info available on how to do it, unless
you also go for production methods that get it done faster. But probably the latter is better.
Hey Terrence thats great that your going to start up Anigen again... It couldn't hurt to post it on Stage 6...
http://stage6.divx.com/
Its free, high res and there's ton of Anime fans there...and you don't have to pay for the bandwidth : )
There is a lot more info on the net about technique nowdays so I would definitely throw some time at building an audience and the marketing angle. Even though you can distribute for next to nothing today, you still need to figure out how to get attention for your work (if you care about anyone actually seeing it that is :)). Any advice you have regarding actually making some money at it would be cool too.
Tyler is right though, anything that can speed production is always welcome.
One thing I know lots of people ask about is just what kinds of markets are out there for direct sellers. How many copies can a person realistically expect to sell of an anime, espisode, manga, comic, or movie? Without the experience, it is very tough for new creators to estimate what reasonable expectations and budgets are.
OT> When are you going to post some cool new trailers from your latest stuff :P?
Seems pretty unanimous. Great responses everyone, I appreciate the feedback. I've been leaning toward this more and more myself as I have so much I want to put into it.
Alex: Those are the very kinds of questions that are addressed in the course. Traffic, numbers, expectations, methods, marketing...
I have the first teaser trailer for my new show done, but I don't want to sidetrack from the course at the moment. Teasers will be an important part of the course too. ;)
jasonn: I forgot to mention. I do have a good Vue video coming down the road based on some of the things in the previous posts on backgrounds. It's not going to be Vue only. There will likely be some modo as well. Plenty of great stuff on radiosity, lighting, layered fog, mate paintings and even some cool space techniques.
Sounds like you are on a roll!
Have you seen this trailer;
http://www.clockworkmachina.com/?p=288
and if so what do you think of the mix of techniques/quality? Obviously a work in progress, but the more traditional hand drawn stuff I watch, and I have been watching a lot lately for inspiration, the more certain uses of 3D elements pains me. Even just the smoothness of certain computer moves in compositing pulls me out of the mood (for lack of a better explanation).
alex: Seems to be some very serious Tarantino influence there. I had not seen that before. And a series?! I will be surprised if they can keep that kinda quality up for 13 episodes (the last one being an hour). Then again, with American money behind it who knows where anime may go.
I didn't feel this one was over CG'd like many Gonzo works. On the whole I still love their work, but this one seems like more like a lot fo digital warping of 2D elements than 3D. I do get what you mean though. I am still bothered by an improper mix of 2D and 3D. I thought Gonzo did it well in Brave Story.
Here's an issue I find even more interesting. It is the names behind it. As the costs of anime continue to rise and the market in general slumps, it may grow more and more like Hollywood where it takes these huge co-productions to pull in enough of an audience to be profitable. Afro Samurai was probably seen far more than any anime since The Animatrix. Most imported stuff could never hope to get even 10% of their numbers. This kind of stuff may have the kind of mainstream appeal the lack of which has kept Japanese productions from catching on as much as some should here.
Like Alexs said Theres tons of places, websites, books, & magazine's, teaching one how to do what one wants to do but mum's the word on how to capture an audience, how to generate the most exposure one can on the web and keep them coming back for more.
Having a website isn't enough how do you get people to your site? With out spam and all of the annoying methods used by those with dubious intentions.
I'd like to add my vote for more material on how to generate a bloodthristy.... errrr.. thirsty crowd for indie material. I enjoy seeing how Terrence and others work, but at the end of the day my production is going to use largely different techniques and software. But one of the topics we will all have to face is how to market our material, how to connect with our audience, and what sales figures are attainable. I'd also love to look into the topics of how having an accompanying book can help sales/revenue, such as what Timothy Albee did with Kaze, or Brian Taylor did with RustBoy.
So bring on the new material Terrence! Your audience is listening. :-D
Cheers,
Michael Duffy
Terrence: Sounds cool.
Vue 5 is a pretty nice program, but I've actually found myself using it mostly for terrain and plant generation, which is then exported into Lightwave for additional touch-ups and rendering (with architecture/buildings are created in LW Modeler): probably a different process than what you're using, but I've been having terrific success recently using a combination of edited/painted texture maps, procedural textures, CelPainter celshading, and Lightwave's render engine that gives me a much better "stylized" scene at a lower render time than what Vue could give me.
Michael: "Rustboy" still isn't out yet, is it? I always thought that was a project that sort of took on a life bigger than what it's creator could handle (kinda like what happened to Fathom Studios "Delgo" CG film).
I always thought Delgo was still a "Go" for eventual release wasn't it? Last I heard they had some significant names attached. Still, Rustboy, I think, was over-expanded by fan expectation and became something bigger than the creator originally planned, and perhaps got a little too big.
As far as I know, yes, "Delgo" is still in production for eventual release for 'sometime' this year, but they've made that same claim last year and the year before that (and the year before that...).
Yeah, the film has attracted some pretty big voice talent - however, as past experience has shown, just having celebrity voice acting does not neccessary equal a good movie. :D
Alex S: the 2D-3D intergration in that show didn't seem too bad too bad to me, although I understand what you mean about poor CG elements; the best CG-3D intergration that I've ever seen in a 2D film was (and still is) the Giant from Brad Bird's "The Iron Giant".
Jasonn: No, Rustboy isn't out yet, and I'm not sure how much time Brian is able to spend on it these days. But he did produce a "making of" book for the film to help with financing part of it. I don't know how successfull it was, but it is definately another revenue source to consider. As an indie, we don't want to just limit our income to DVD or online sales of our films. We also need to consider ancillary merchandising, such as books (making of, or even fiction in the same world), soundtracks, posters, t-shirts, mousepads, etc. It is from the sum total of these sales that we will derive our income.
Delgo is still under development according to my contacts. Fathom doesn't have many people working on it anymore, but they are still pushing it forward for eventual release. I don't know if they have a distributor yet or not.
Cheers,
Michael Duffy
Funny you should mention names because I think that is a big danger to Japanese animation.
By this I mean that American productions really de-emphasize the artists involved or boil it down to one or two names. The comic book industry throws names around left and right but there are only a few people involved in each book anyway... not so with animation. What happens when American style marketing comes along and Japanese involvement gets boiled down to a studio tag or "from the animators of xxxy"?
Will Japanese animators just become work for hire unknowns (in the US)? What happens if the American writers get all the attention, and companies just think of Japanese studios as a place to get the animation done rather than a collaborative partner? That can't be good for the Japanese industry and I don't see it improving the market for Japanese animation (written and made by Japanese artists).
I think the solution is more outlets for Japanese animation here not just having American stories animated in Japan. Right now the main way to be exposed to Japanese animation is still word-of-mouth and DVD. (Free) TV presence is mimimal (and people are turning away from TV anyway) and theatrical is almost nil. DVDs cost $$ (unless you count Internet piracy, a huge and debilitating factor for the industry) and even most of the TV anime is pay per view or by subscription channel.
Alex S: I don't know, I think that the "Name emphasize" concept that you're talking about isn't really a foreign concept to Anime: how many times do we see a film or tv series being sold as a "'Hayao Miazaki' film" or "written by 'Shoji Kawamori'"?
Every study or company has certain individuals that have produced quality-films/animations/ect. After a while, consumers begin to associate those names with high quality; therefore, it makes sense for the studios to sell their product with that person's name attached to it.
Plus, animation outsourcing isn't just an American-only practice: Japan's been doing it for years with studios in South Korea and Taiwan.
I think the real danger to Anime's future in the US is the fact that production costs are increasing, yet American consumers are used to 'Wal-Mart'-style pricing of DVDs. When a company like Bandai Visual releases volume 1 of "Freedom" or "Gunbuster 2" in the US with only 1 episode on DVD for $30+ (around the same price as Japanese DVDs), the first thing people immediately do is complain that the price is too high and reconsider buying the product, thinking that that will "teach" the distributor from releasing the DVD at a 'high price for low content' - well, all that's going to do is decrease the sales that the studio makes off it's product and the studio has less funds to produce new content.
Keep in mind, though, that anime still has something of a niche market edge and often, those in the know are more than willing to pay a higher price for something that would not otherwise be able to get.
It's like the guy from Next Wave films said about indie releases on DVD. He thinks they should be at higher price point and that the audience who is looking for that mnovie which is "different" wilkl support that price point to get different content.
It will be very intersting to see how Freedom does being released like this, but remember that we already have Kakurenbo (from the same director) and Voices of a Distant Star which show that a single 30 minute anime can make it here in the US.
That's definately true, but those releases also had another benefit of having additional content on the disc in addition to the main feature, as well as being released with both the Japanese language with English subtitles and an English dub version (which is still an important feature with American audiences, despite what online otakus say :D ).
"Freedom" is subtitled only (which I've noticed drew the most complaints) and the Extras content is only available on the HD-DVD part of the disc (which is great for viewers that actually have an HD-DVD player, but regular DVD player owners are going to be out of luck).
For me I'd prefer info on how to build up a 'hungry' crowd and get my products 'devoured' by the same. Like many have rightly said, there's been a lot of how to get it done materials out there (More is better though) and rarely anything on the marketing and distribution end of things, which is where I score F Minus!
You guys seen Tomb Raider Revisioned at Gametap? That has a nice blend of 2D and some 3D I think. Hard to tell at those resolutions but it's a neat little series.
As for the cost of anime I think it should be cheaper (as I do with movies). Why make people decide if something is worth it before they buy it? I think sales would be a lot higher if the DVDs were $5 or $5.95 even if they had only a few episodes. You can always release limited edition stuff at higher price points with bonuses etc. I pay $$ for limited edition versions of stuff that I know I want to own.
Lower prices also cuts down on the rental market (which is good IMO) because why spend $4.95 to rent it for a week when you can own it at $5 or so? When you get down in price things become impulse purchases. Honestly, I always thought if DVDs were only a dollar or two, and sold all over, you'd see piracy vastly diminish, no need for rentals, and more people throwing money at whatever strikes their fancy. Same amount of dollars being spent perhaps (though I think more) but far more creators being supported. It simply means making your work economically accessible, which is what the internet does whether you like it or not.
In my experience, piracy (downloading and rent and rip) is much higher with anime than regular movies because it is so expensive. Perhaps not on a per episode basis, but when you ask people to shell out $30-70 dollars a pop, it puts you in a different economic model than the mass market download pricing we are starting to see. Imagine if all comic books were only available in expensive anthologies of a few issues each?
T. You feel that there is a market for higher priced stuff for people seeking quality, unusualness, etc. I agree, but those numbers will always be smaller because not everyone can afford to buy more than a small selection of higher priced stuff anyway. Why not support everyone who might want to see your work? I know lots of people who would love to own lots of anime but simply can't afford it.
Anyway, getting started at a higher price might be necessary but I think the goal should be to make product affordable to whoever wants it, and I think far more people want anime/animation than is widely thought.
Unless you are talking the biggest of mainstreams, I think anime is as popular as sci-fi, fantasy, and comic books were in the 80s and 90s (i.e. everyone wants it but it isn't getting delivered enough by big media). Maybe in a few years anime/animation will get the same sort of treatment that sci-fi/fantasy/comics get today (influencing everything), but I think the mainstream desire is there already. Just look at manga sales in US.
If it turns out to be true that a lot more people want anime, but can't afford it, then the anime companies are really missing out with their high prices, but I don't think that's the case.
You mention manga sales, but as I wrote in another article, TOKYOPOP is the largest manga distributor in this country and they sold 10 Million books for a total of $40 Million in revenue last year. But they have over a hundred different titles. A single movie like The Transporter did $89 Million in revenue on DVD according to Video Business Weekly. That's a vast gap in the marketplace.
From what I read, most anime releases top out at about 10,000 copies per volume. Super popular titles like Ghost in the Shell may reach 100,000 copies. Even on TV, the most popular anime gets lower ratings than a UFO movie. (meaning UFO Films where I worked) At least based on TV, people aren't flocking to anime as much people expected.
According to the executive producer at UFO, anime has a major problem with market penetration because it is still very foreign. A large segment of middle America just won't get into it. Thus it remains in a niche.
How about charater animation,texturing and building an audiance? Or maybe building an audiance first.
btw way..have you ever seen Cowboy bebop? now that some great anime!
-Omnimegnalon
Alex: I have to agree with Terrence: I don't anime would be doing that much better if it were much cheaper. It would be interesting if we could get evidence that supported or disproved this theory -- e.g. Netflix order rates or Adult Swim Nielsen ratings, where anime competes directly with traditional fare at the same price -- but I don't think those numbers are available.
Interesting note, though: I recently read Scott McCloud's "Making Comics", and he suggests that manga is doing very well relative to traditional comics.
Omnimegnalon: I agree. Cowboy Bebop is awesome. Unfortunately, it's also the most expensive-to-produce anime series of all time, so it's unlikely we'll see something of the same visual quality anytime soon.
JCL: The numbers are out there. It just takes a little digging. Most anime is lucky to get past a .3 rating on TV, especially on adult swim. Some breakouts have gotten .5 to .7 ratings.
For comparison, Afro Samurai got a 1.1 on its first showing. That's actually pretty amazing for animation on a cable network. A 1.1 for a UFO movie would not be looked at well by Sci Fi Channel. But the real point is this: Shows on major netowrk get 6.5 to 11.2 type ratings.
Even Avatar: The Last Airbender was getting 9.3 or so at it's peak. A show that many people liked, called Jericho, got a 9.0 and they cancelled it.
The gap for anime is pretty huge. Anime is on TV because it's cheap. They don't have to make it. They practically give it away to the networks in the hopes it will sell more DVD's.
Hey Terrence, what happen to the Anigen Course page that you added yesterday? I was going to sign-up today (had to update my PayPal account first), but all the course information and payment options are gone.
Just doing a little reworking on it. The price is not going to change or anything, just needs some touch ups. I got some suggestions from a couple of marketing experts that I really wanted to implement. It will be back up very soon.
Terrence: Thanks for the stats -- they're eye-opening. Given the relative unpopularity of anime, even when it's free on TV, it sounds like anime is supported mostly by a small, rabid fan base. Which implies that the anime companies are doing the smart thing by charging high prices for DVDs, since they are probably selling them to most of the people who would buy them, even if they were sold at a cheaper price. That said, services like Netflix may encourage price parity in the future -- to the detriment of the anime companies, though, who will have less resources to support their art.
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