GOING AGAINST THE SYSTEM
Like Morpheus tells us in the anime inspired, action film The Matrix, we are programmed to be a part of a system. The penalty for going against the system can be grave. How often do we hear terms like, "You have to pay your dues."? How often do we hear of the struggle and pain of the one who went their own way before they found success. The system desires to run like a well oiled machine. If you desire to go and seek your own way, the system will quickly turn against you. I remember reading the words of world traveller Winston Wu as to how his travels upset the system:
...On job applications in many American companies, you are required to explain any “gaps” in your work history, as if having gaps in your work record means that there’s “something wrong” that you have to explain. In their eyes, traveling, unless its related to your career, doesn’t come off well. Sheesh. Not only does this put extensive travelers on the defensive, but it means they will probably lose any chance of getting hired if they tell the truth. Therefore, in a sense, corporate America condemns travelers who don’t conform to the “work work work” year round routine and lifestyle.
This very attitude of companies made me immediately think of Phil Nibbelink. Instead of being praised his accomplishment with Romeo & Juliet: Sealed With A Kiss, he was nearly condemned. Reviewers, many of whom work for news agencies now owned by the major studios, trashed the film. Many theatre owners refused to show it. Even its DVD release was met with little fanfare or note such that even those interested in the film didn't know it was out.
Now think about this a moment. Many major studios like Disney often make far worse, lower quality movies for their direct-to-video, children's markets and these movies get great support from the company, marketing budgets and often sell hundreds of thousands if not a million copies. Any of these companies could easily have partnered with Phil Nibbelink, having all the work already done for them, and given his film a large release on DVD with very little risk. It's like making free money! But he went against the system. Supporting that might encourage too many other animators to leave their rigidly structured, 16 hour per day jobs where management and producers, who couldn't draw a stick figure, will tell them over and over how to do their art "right".
Like Morpheus tells us in the anime inspired, action film The Matrix, we must free our minds. We must strive to make the system unnecessary in reaching our audience. We must use the multitude of tools for marketing and distribution available to everyone today to circumvent the rules. We must control our own destinies.
...On job applications in many American companies, you are required to explain any “gaps” in your work history, as if having gaps in your work record means that there’s “something wrong” that you have to explain. In their eyes, traveling, unless its related to your career, doesn’t come off well. Sheesh. Not only does this put extensive travelers on the defensive, but it means they will probably lose any chance of getting hired if they tell the truth. Therefore, in a sense, corporate America condemns travelers who don’t conform to the “work work work” year round routine and lifestyle.
This very attitude of companies made me immediately think of Phil Nibbelink. Instead of being praised his accomplishment with Romeo & Juliet: Sealed With A Kiss, he was nearly condemned. Reviewers, many of whom work for news agencies now owned by the major studios, trashed the film. Many theatre owners refused to show it. Even its DVD release was met with little fanfare or note such that even those interested in the film didn't know it was out.Now think about this a moment. Many major studios like Disney often make far worse, lower quality movies for their direct-to-video, children's markets and these movies get great support from the company, marketing budgets and often sell hundreds of thousands if not a million copies. Any of these companies could easily have partnered with Phil Nibbelink, having all the work already done for them, and given his film a large release on DVD with very little risk. It's like making free money! But he went against the system. Supporting that might encourage too many other animators to leave their rigidly structured, 16 hour per day jobs where management and producers, who couldn't draw a stick figure, will tell them over and over how to do their art "right".
Like Morpheus tells us in the anime inspired, action film The Matrix, we must free our minds. We must strive to make the system unnecessary in reaching our audience. We must use the multitude of tools for marketing and distribution available to everyone today to circumvent the rules. We must control our own destinies.
26 Comments:
Check out the first of these animations on this page as well. It correlates nicely. South Park Guys Do Buddism
"...On job applications in many American companies, you are required to explain any “gaps” in your work history, as if having gaps in your work record means that there’s “something wrong” that you have to explain."
All I can to this is, "AINT IT THE TRUTH!"
I found out about "Romeo & Juliet: SWaK"'s DVD release by sheer accident - I did a title search on Amazon to see if the DVD was even listed in there system (which, thankfully, it was) ;)
Regarding the "Romeo & Juliet" DVD, though, there are two parties that (realistically) must also be blamed for the lack of knowledge regarding it's release:
1. Indican Pictures (the company that's distributing the film on DVD)
2. Phil Nibblelink (yes, even him)
I don't know who design/developed the "R&J" website (whether it was Nibblelink himself or someone else), but once the film was out on DVD, there should have been an announcement on the site: however, there isn't, nor was there ever a change - the website has remained static and moving with the same content that it had when it was first published last year (around the same time that the film was starting a limited theatrical run).
Nibblelink had no production blog or put out any information regarding the creation of the film online until after it was created (even then, it appears that a good portion of the info online about the movie came from other people that knew him and about the film). And what little info that was out there, it never changed; it was static and unmoving, never being updated or current to reflect the status of the film and it's release.
By all the accounts that I've been able to find, Nibblelink promoted his film using the same methods that he learned from the Studio System - these are precisely the methods that indie filmmakers must IGNORE if they are to be successful in this day and age.
Indican Pictures, the company that's releasing the film on Home Video, is just as bad (if not even worse) in terms of promotion - they have absolutely NO listing/information whatsoever on their website about "R&J", about NIbblelink, that they're the ones distributing it, it's release on DVD, or where to purchase the DVD. :/
Well the way I see it... even if
you have a gap in your job
If you say you took some time off to work on a pet project that was very related to your current line of work, and relate the work you did and what you learned to the job you are applying for it could very well be seen as a positive thing. Especially if you have something to show for yourself.
It's all in the marketing!
I have not seen this yet but I remember getting news about this animated movie from one of the online ezines I subscribe to, and let’s just say its as TW pointed out that many trashed the film. And not to beat up on the guy because what Phil Nibbelink accomplished with what he had truly puts the majors to shame I think Phil is striving to work around and outside the system and is slowly reaching the audience he desires.
True I think he could use more of the tools of marketing and distribution available to anyone in today’s world to circumvent the system.
But in the end he’s controlling his creation & destiny outside and without assistance from mainstream Hollywood.
I wish I was as talented as he was. I'm subjec to my lack of skills. Although now I'm looking for funding for my film and it's going pretty good.
I'm in talks right now, it reallys helps when you have DQ Entertainment makers of Skyland willing to do your movie. I'm prepping my guerilla campaign targetted at large and small business.
If I get the funds I need they will make the movie for 1 million dollars. I have a few business meetings getting lined up and hope to find more so we'll see how that goes. I personally want to work on the border of the system.
If I don't get this funding it's cool. I'm going into production of Bigfoot vs Aliens (greys) and that is a more modest budget of 10,000. I can get that I'm sure. :)
That is more for getting my name out. Can't go wrong with Sasquatch. I hope it goes Viral video! It's only 30 minutes long with mocap.
Shawn,
I'm afraid you're not outside the system. Instead you're deep into it. You're planning your film to be done by outsourcing to DQ, the famous sweatshop of India.
It's sad. But it seems like there's no production workflow existing outside 'THE SYSTEM'.
What is indie animation filmmaking? Someone gathers a fund and get it produced by outsourcing, like Hoodwinked. Is this the holy grail of indie animations? Low quality films made by would be production studios? Why wouldn't we think like indie comic and anime filmmakers? They never relied on outsourcing. They never treated animations as business only. You can feel the passion and the transfer of intense energy through their films.
I think indie filmmaking deserves a better definition.
I remember being very turned-off by Hoodwinked's creators' attitude towards the animation studio that they used (which I believe was located in the Phillipines):
they went and made a big deal in the Media about how 'great' the film was and how it was a 'turning point in independent filmmaking' - however, in other interviews 'outside' of the Mainstream Press, they would piss and moan that the film had poor animation, that the budget they had 'forced' them to look at 'lower-quality' studios outside the US, and that the animation studio's experience was severely lacking compared to the creators' creative vision!
These types of attitudes tick me off to no end. :/
Shawn: I tend to agree with satyajit - what you're talking about is not the 'Border' of the System, it IS the System.
WHY do people still believe that they need million+ dollars to create a film? WHY do they feel the need to compete with or join together with the Majors to be great/successful? WHY do they believe that the Studio System is the BEST method for creating Film/Animation?
I have absolutely NO desire to work with of the Mainstream Film Industry, nor will I ever; I will create MY works - the way I WANT them to be - without being a part of the current Studio System.
Because I believe that we filmmakers no longer need that System.
Hey Satyajit,
You sound like you have good knowledge of DQ Entertainment. Please tell me more as I would like to find out more about the company I intend to work with.
Personally I'd love to do the movie all myself and still have that in plans to do so, but unlike yourself I do not have the skill or ability to make it the way I want it to look and unfortunately you are right about there not being a "production workflow" outside the system. The simple fact of the matter and what is sad about CG and art outside of any art or movie making is that it is very time intensive and no one wants to collaborate.
Those willing to collaborate on a project usually are strong of heart but have the lack of skill. And those with skills need to eat and are so far up the system they rely to heavily on it. Instead of being the man they simply work for the man being cut out by outsourcing.
Personally for me, I think outsourcing is a double edge sword for good and for evil.
For those who want to work in animation in other countries where once not available they get the opportunity and have to go through growing pains, but as it begins to pick up the economy they then are able to create their own pipelines and own movies. Those countries grow and substain themselves eventually. Without that evil I don't think they would ever had the ability to grow in that direction.
On the other hand I'm not concerned as much as where a person is from, an artist is an artist for me!
Now personally I do not know much about DQ Entertainment other than the results I've seen and I'd love to know more about their business practices. You called it a sweatshop and I'd like to know what the real case is please share any experience you have.
IF you could recommend another production company with good values I would love to hear about them.
Honestly I think for me personally that making Indie movies should be a little about money and the other half about the art. You have a problem now a days with people going on either end and never meeting in the middle to produce something fun and great.
Hollywood only seems to make rerun after rerun and concerned only with money and are afraid to experiment while you have the Indie filmakers who make the most boring pretentious gobbledy gook about some social issue. I say meet that in the middle.
Drop the Hollywood formula and drop the artsy fartsy pretentiousness and you'd have some entertaining and deeply good films.
I want to be on the fence on that system. I want to be able to make a living doing my animations and telling my stories.
I can go the route of using Poser and Vue and make a descent movie but it will only go so far. I do intend to use Poser to make a movie.
But for those custom made works what can I do. Model some ugly model because of my lack of skill? People say practice and I've practiced for 10 years but you know what there is honestly a limit how good anyone can get. You can get better with practice but you will eventually hit the peak of your ability.
So instead of fool myself like a bad American Idol hopeful I know my limitations and want to work on stories. For a small guy like me finding a team is hard.
Live action is not so hard. I was talking to many who got a team together to do live action and a crew is always ready to have fun. For CG I can barely find artists who'll work on your film as a collab so I have to resort to hiring people. It's a fact of CG. Tons of great artists who could work their day jobs and by night could become a force to be reckoned with even to compete against Pixar but it unfortunately does not happen. It's a sad fact about collaboration.
I would love to find funding and work with a team like that, but the fact of that matter is you will not get funding without a recognized cast behind you either. At least with DQ working with me it has opened doors. " Oh the makers of "skyland" Okay we'll think about your proposal!"
I simply want to be on the edge of both worlds. You know honestly if I had your talent that would be awesome! Unfortunately I don't. So I concentrate on my main talent and that is making stories, talkig to folks and getting them excited about a project and getting things together.
You talk about low quality and that is what I'm trying to avoid and if I did it entirely by myself that is what you would get. You tube fodder at best, which Bigfoot VS Aliens will be Youtube goodness fun but I doubt very good looking, lol. But that is the film I'm concentrating on. Looking for a collaber on that one, need a Bigfoot and an Alien. We'll see if I get at least one collaber on that. :) I got voice talent, music and sound talent but cannot find one collab modeller that's any good.
Why wouldn't we think like indie comic and anime filmmakers?
Anime filmmaking in Japan is one of the worst paying jobs there is, they have sweatshops that are insane. Their animators get paid about 800 bucks a month or slightly more and they live in a town where rent is one of the most expensive in the WORLD! Because of that low pay their are many Japanese leaving the industry.
Indie comic writers usually do not make a living doing indie comics on the regular. They have to work the day job and create by night and some are very limited to publishing. You should see how Diamond treats indie folks. If you get through Image comics you are good to go but they sometimes don't recoup their money. IF they dont recoup the publishing money they put in they take it from you. And if you do it yourself you ain't going to sell much, yeah you'd tell your stories but it would probably stop at that one story.
My goal is to make a good product and not let my lack of skills get in the way or a day job eat it all up. Unfortunately to get the funds you have to be around the system but not exactly in it. And if I make it big I'm going to fund other people's films and stories. My main focus is to ditch the day job and work for myself, just an honest living. I don't want to work where I am and I don't want to work on other people's visions.
My goal is to tell fun stories and good stories but at the same time give someone something good to look at and look the way I want. I want them to be entertained and I want them to pay 1.50 to watch it on their IPod or online. :)
To really open the market for everyone and test new horizons there has to be at least one success story so others can follow. We have a new generation of portable devices and internet viewing. It is a new media like the radio, the theatre and the tv before it. We have a new outlet that everyone can use. But we want to be a success using that outlet and show that it can make money and offer us the freedom to make what we want.
Even Project Freedom needed a backer in Ramen Noodles.
I'm trying to open the way to Freedom. Stay out of the Hollywood cog and work for myself and not a company but I want a small dash of Hollywood money to make the films the way I want to make them.
Let me know what you think of DQ as I am not aware of all their methods. I do not want to contribute to anyone's plight, but if they are happy animators at that company I'd like to help keep them doing what they love and would love to utilize their talent pool.
Now if anyone wants to simply make a talent pool with me and we pull our resources....:) I would be happy with that too.
And just for you Satyajit, when are you going to make your first real movie for yourself? A long good movie? You are fast and good. You could be one of the ones to break down the door!
Jasonn
WHY do people still believe that they need million+ dollars to create a film? WHY do they feel the need to compete with or join together with the Majors to be great/successful? WHY do they believe that the Studio System is the BEST method for creating Film/Animation?
Hollywood believes you need 10s of millions of dollars.
I don't think you need to be successful to compete with the majors but you need a good looking product with good stories. You need to provide what both ends do not provide. Indie's don't provide the level of quality and Hollywood lacks on story.
IN the same sense alot of Indie films need to take a commercial view as well and have smart business sense and look GOOD!
Hollywood needs to take more risks and have more to offer than remakes.
I don't believe you need millions of dollars to make a good looking film especially if you have the talent and the time to plug away at it.
I would love more than ever to work with a bunch of people in a collab and make a nice film but it ain't happening. That level of collaboration rarely exists in CG due to the time intensive labor and the fact that it's not just like a normal movie where everyone shows up on a weekend and tapes some stuff and have fun in front of the camera.
Even for indie films like Napoleon Dynamite they needed 495,000 dollars to make it. It still took money.
Now with CG it is slightly differant especially when you go it alone. You can do it for time and the price of the hardware, but not everyone is talented enough to pull it off to make a commercial value or something even worth looking at unless you make a funky style like M Dot Strange but no everyone wants to do that. I'm included.
I want to make a very stylized film with a great stylized artist. Yeah I can draw them halfway descently but guess what I don't want my film to look like my crappy drawings.
It would be nice to get some collabers and at least a bit of money together to make a pipeline.
IT doesn't have to be millions but those helping would have to do so on a big money curve.
But I remember even Terrence mentioning about making a film for 1 million in India with MOCAP.
Now if my funding does not pan out I'll just do what I was doing and save up to pay modellers,riggers and a lighter and I animate and get friends and family and some talent to do voice and then get local bands to do music.
In other words I'm working on both routes. If I cannot get the funding to get DQ entertainment involved then I'll still go it alone and get smaller barebones funding and do it myself.
There is also a differance between the Hollywood system and financer's. I'm looking for financer's and being my own producer. :)
I'm certain I'll get my barebones fund of 15,000 and that is to buy my software and such so I'm still making my movie, but it doesn't hurt to have a backer for my INdie film and I can direct and produce and have it animted.
I love the way Skyland looks and would love my movie to look like that although I'm going to have more stylized characters. :)
And if anyone can think of a better production company from DQ that could run around the same range and don't have slaves (which I'm still going to research) I would love to know who and please send a link.
Shawn:
"I don't think you need to be successful to compete with the majors but you need a good looking product with good stories."
Why do you need to compete with the majors at all?
Shawn: It seems like you are passionate about your story and yes, sometimes it is best to know and understand your strengths and flaws as an artist.
However, I don't agree with your train of logic:
"Stay out of the Hollywood cog and work for myself and not a company but I want a small dash of Hollywood money to make the films the way I want to make them."
It sounds to me that part of your eventual goal is to become the 'Same' as the Majors - my biggest question is, "If you think that System is so terrible, why do you feel the need to become the same as it?"
"There is also a differance between the Hollywood system and financer's."
No, Hollywood do have financers - they're just called 'Producers'.
Regarding my comment about "beliving that you need 1+ million to make a film", that was in regards to your initial comment about trying to afford a million dollar budget. You say you don't believe indie filmmakers need that amount of money to produce a film, yet you're still trying for it anyway?
Also, I would agrue strongly that Independent Films/Filmmakers 'lack' the levels of quality that Hollywood has or that ALL indie films are 'boring, pretentious gobbledy-gook about some social issue'. I admit, there are some Indies do go extremely overboard on certain issues/topics (then again, so does Hollywood) and that some indies lack the technical skills that the Major Studios' Directors, Cinematographers, etc. possess (although I'd also argue that there are a lot of 'professionals' that also lack these skills).
However, to lump all of it together and label it as 'poor' or 'low3 quality' is just as bad as saying that all Hollywood films are 'soulless drivel' or they have 'no creativity'. Independent Film as a whole (from all over the world, not just in the US) have created some of the most original, passionate, and compelling films that I've ever seen in my life.
Shawn,
By saying DQ is a sweatshop, I don't mean to demean that company. Most of the companies living on outsourced jobs are sweatshops. It's the standard. So, nobody complains. You speak to any of the employees, the lower ranked ones will rant and the upper ranked ones will rave. It's the same in any hierarchy.
My knowledge of DQ? I know some guys who work there. They are well paid and cannot complain to work 16 hrs shifts. And they don't care what animations they're doing as long as they get the pat from the supervisors. Whenever I have raised the issue of good animation, they seemed least concerned about it as long as the client is happy. Now, is that passion about the craft? I doubt so.
And any environment which cares least about what they are doing in terms of creativity is a sweatshop to me.
To my knowledge , any company like DQ is not responsible for the creative soul of any production. It's the people behind the pre-production and animation direction, which are from the producing company. DQ is not the architect of Skyland, it's the labor union behind the construction.
Then again, whatever it is, what does it has to with an independent mind? Trying to make his/her film. Nothing!!
Shawn, I agree with TW. Don't follow the big studio formulas unless you have their marketing strengths. They can sell sh** solely through their marketing strength. Do you want to be like that?
As for me, I'm walking the road. I can't guarantee that it's the right path to the promised land until I reach there. To my experience it's easy to get lost in the SYSTEM and be a part of it. It's difficult to nurture and maintain the independent heart.
The door is hard to break. Even if I make a dent in it while serving my time, I'll let everyone know where I made the dent. Jump on that spot!!
With all due respect guys, I don't think doing things "the indie way"
should be made into a religion or
a political cause.
While abusing workers is not something I approve of, if I had the money to hire a studio to help with the situation, I would do it.
Robert Rodriguez made his first film as an independent, but he managed to get into the system.
I don't think we should look down on people just because they got funding. It sounds like Shawn has
good talent as a producer. Way to go Shawn.
I don't know about DQ entertainment, but I hope they are not a sweatshop as Satyajit says.
What if you called them yourself and asked them how long they treat their animators? I don't know how these things are done, but I understand that typically you'd need somebody there in India to supervise things anyway, right?
What I mean about stay out of the cog is that you do not have to be in theatres, you don't have to be in the Hollywood system to get the funds to make your film. Many of hte investors I'm going for are not even Hollywood. They are dentists, lawyers, small business men and angel investors who themselves were small time and made it big and are interested in investing in something fun.
Personally I want to keep things small but not super small but then again skies the limit. I want to see if I can fly.
I really want to be a producer and make my stories and if someone coughed up 1 million to help produce my movie I wouldn't turn it away unless they descided to do something with the integrity of my story. I'm not reliant on that though. I'm still going forward no matter what.
Honestly I don't think the majors or the indies are bad. I may have worded that wrong and not conveyed my ideas the way I wanted.
Some of the indies do have some good stuff others are overly pretentious artsy fartsy films, they forget that film is to entertain as well as make people think.
If I can be a major and make the visions I like that would be great, if not I don't mind either. My main goal is to be able to turn this love into a living.
I don't see any harm in getting that million dollar budget. I mean in Hollywood's standards that is indie style film. I think the only harm is loving to make stuff and not doing it.
I'm all for the indie, the one man in a room and I always intend to promote that.
I also would like to be able to hire artists and not rely strictly on collab for my more prestigous projects.
I'm about promoting ideas.
I think of Terrence's old team at UFO films. Who really has heard of them at the movies, but they make a ton of movies for Sci Fi channel for about a budget of 2 million dollars.
If I can get that budget and credits think of all the stories I could tell or help others to tell.
If I had my way I'd be like the Image Comics of Digital Portable/Internet Media.
Just like Eric Larson, Todd McFarlane and Jim Lee went out on their own and started a company and gave themselves the freedom to create and then as they grew they gave others that opportunity. Even to this day Image allows every comic creator under it's banner to keep full rights and tell their stories.
I think people like you and I, Terrence, M DOt Strange are going to make headway pretty soon.
I'm not trying to sell my product to Hollywood. I'm trying to make a small indie film on a budget of 1 million dollars and then going from there but like I said if I don't accomplish that I'm still going through with making my film. Whether it is saving up for modeller's and turning in my 401K plan or finding that funding from outside investors who give me that freedom to make what I want to make and tell stories.
When you think of competing with the majors I think of ourselves as the little guy competition. The ones who can afford to experiment. Our works may not be as glitzy and glamorous but we can entertain people and make them think at the same time. :) We can turn out quality products.
Granted within Hollywood and Indie there are many gems, in fact I think about at least 50% of Hollywood movies are great! This summer I had fun watching Transformers, Disturbia, etc. I love the movies. I love some indie films as well, you should see my shelf of off the wall movies and foreign flicks I have. I think that is the thing I'm mentioning is the thought that people in general have.
You have the general populace on one side and they hear Indie film and they think of Black and white artsy fartsy peice.
When you have the indie lovers who hear HOllywood they think drivel. So yeah let me correct that.
I like many things about both and dislike many things about both. All together though I LOVE MOVIES! I LOVE STORIES!
But let's not say getting a large dose of money for your project either is a bad thing. I'm not going to complain if someone says "I want to invest in your movie. You better make it good and here is the investment, I'm taking a risk on you"
I think the only bad thing in this scenario is give up. I like where everyone is going and where everyone is focusing. That is why I come here to this website in the first place. So many people say it can't be done, hence the lack of active collabers on any one given project outside of CG fan films, and we are saying it can be done.
So whether we are the guy who scrounges the money together from differant sources and makes his dream movie or the lone soldier at night, I think we are all working tirelessly on telling our stories which is most important and I think we will open a way for future generations. I really do! I really hope we do.
I want to make an answer for all the folks who say "It can't be done" to know it can be done.
I think there are a lot more doors to open.
Oh by the way...
check out Rindin the Puffer at Fat Cat Animation.com I had a good sit down with the creator. He was the animation director of Titan A.E. He was a pretty cool guy. He is now doing indie animations and is not really into the whole Hollywood thing but he got a million dollars to do his 5 minute film. That was the budget. It's a really cute little film, very traditional style 2d animation.
Just thought I'd give him props on this board. Very nice guy. He's just having fun telling stories and making a living doing it.
To everyone I want to say keep up the good work and let's show them what we are made of no matter what route you take, let's just get er done!
P.S. IN other news....good news for the indie who can save up
www.naturalpoint.com
It's finally out and lookking good, for all you folks on a budget and need mocap!
I don't necessarily see doing things "the indie way" as being a religion or cause.
What I am against is people wasting ten or fifteen years of their life focusing on one project and trying to get large amounts of money for it that may never come. I know people who have done it. They eventually give up in vain and say it can't be done.
If someone's first film requires a million dollars, maybe they should consider starting smaller. Robert Rodriguez started with what he had and made what he could make.
After working in the industry I am convinced that there is no person or persons who will invest a million dollars and not want their hand in the pot, making changes, having you redo things multiple times, and believing they know better than you how the movie should be.
Makoto Shinkai has a full staff working for him, but he started off making a short 25 minute film that he could complete. That film made big money to make bigger projects possible. He has total freedom.
Inside the system, even Peter Jackson has to answer to the studio. Watch his extended edition DVD's and look at some of the stupid ideas and changes he had to fight against and put up with.
I think it should always and only be about doing what you want to do. If I needed a million to do a film, I would make a smaller movie that I can make now and sell it to raise a miillion. Or make two, three or four, if need be, to get that million. Whoever pays for it owns the movie and has the final say.
And furthermore, where did this idea that you have to do it all by yourself to be independent come from? Me, I'm crazy enough to want to try to do it myself, but live action filmmakers certainly don't think that way.
Satajit, you said:
"My knowledge of DQ? I know some guys who work there. They are well paid and cannot complain to work 16 hrs shifts. And they don't care what animations they're doing as long as they get the pat from the supervisors. Whenever I have raised the issue of good animation, they seemed least concerned about it as long as the client is happy. Now, is that passion about the craft? I doubt so.
And any environment which cares least about what they are doing in terms of creativity is a sweatshop to me."
I think I have a problem with your definition of a sweatshop. Are they forcing the employees to live in compounds like Nike has done, in southeast Asia?
Also, even in the US where people get paid better, and still often work 16 hour days doing keyframe animation, "what the customer wants" is always first and foremost.
I don;t have any experience to back up my thoughts about this, but I'm reminded of a scene in the movie "Ed Wood," where he tells his meat-packing plant-owner investor that the film will turn out great and he will make a lot of money, if he lets him (Ed) do things his way.
And the guy does.
A lot of good points in this thread. I'm curious about Shawn's mention of the guy who raised money for a short, though. It's been my impression that it's really hard to make money off of a short, since: a short can only be released in theaters as part of a festival; it's hard to sell a five-minute DVD; and it's easy for someone to upload the whole thing to YouTube (where, for whatever reason, people feel less guilty about watching a five-minute clip than a half-hour episode). Shorts seem to exist solely to get attention or employment for their creators. So I'm confused why someone would invest money in one. Am I missing something here?
In my mind, this is one of the main things holding independent creators back. Creating a given animation takes a given amount of work, which can either be spread over a lot of people or over a lot of time. An animator working alone must take the second route, which means he must either work a long time without pay, or he must animate while holding another job (taking even longer). And the longer the animator must work on something, the more likely he is to abandon it before the end. So if a half-hour of animation is the minimum needed to be profitable, you will see almost no independent animation. Right?
[QUOTE]What I am against is people wasting ten or fifteen years of their life focusing on one project and trying to get large amounts of money for it that may never come. I know people who have done it. They eventually give up in vain and say it can't be done.
If someone's first film requires a million dollars, maybe they should consider starting smaller. Robert Rodriguez started with what he had and made what he could make.
[/QUOTE]
I agree on this, that is why personally I have 3 movies production. 1 am looking for funds to get done, 1 I am making on the side and one is in pre production and another one still as an idea.
Finding funds can be difficult but I like that part myself. I like seeing if I can make a business of this, I love searching for talent. It's a learning journey for me but my time line is for 1 25 minute release made on my own in early March of next year, maybe sooner! :) IT's an easier story and has only 4 characters.
I'm also making a few plush dolls for one of my movies to raise funds.
Satajit, you said:
[QUOTE]"My knowledge of DQ? I know some guys who work there. They are well paid and cannot complain to work 16 hrs shifts. And they don't care what animations they're doing as long as they get the pat from the supervisors. Whenever I have raised the issue of good animation, they seemed least concerned about it as long as the client is happy. Now, is that passion about the craft? I doubt so.
And any environment which cares least about what they are doing in terms of creativity is a sweatshop to me." [/QUOTE]
I just want to make sure they are not running a sweatshop in the normal sense of the word with bad conditions for the workers and forcing them to live there and things like that. If that were the case then I would not agree to that.
Satyajit said:
So, nobody complains. You speak to any of the employees, the lower ranked ones will rant and the upper ranked ones will rave. It's the same in any hierarchy.
That happens at every company. I'm on the lower end of the totem pole and if you ask me I rant, but I'm far from being in a sweatshop and I really don't have it that bad.
DQ Entertainment would not be in charge of making my movie. In fact all pre production and direction will be done by me and a few collabers, cinematographer, storyboarder and I. If you think about most workers in any animation field they usually just do what the client says. Like you mentioned they want the client to be happy and not worry about the animation. Well I'll be happy when they produce a good product equivalent or better than Skyland.
If they are happy being cogs in the wheel and animating all day then that is what they like to do.
That is everywhere you look. Even at Pixar you have folks who simply do their job, they do it well but they are interested not in being in charge but doing a good job. I'm the creative force behind my movie, I'm the direction, they are the talent to help fulfill my vision.
I am the creative soul behind the production :)
Satyajit said:
Shawn, I agree with TW. Don't follow the big studio formulas unless you have their marketing strengths. They can sell sh** solely through their marketing strength. Do you want to be like that?
That is where we independents get to look for new horizons and ways of doing things to get our stories out to the public. We have to work outside the marketting system they have but we still utilize their methods but on a smaller and more creative scale.
Oh and keep an eye out for my production page starting at the end of August for
Bigfoot vs Greys
Hereos, Villians, and Everything in Between (the one I"m trying to get DQ in on)
I Love Kaiju
and last but not least the 2007 semi finalist at the comic book challenge
The Legend of Kalimar
Shawn:
"I don't see any harm in getting that million dollar budget. I mean in Hollywood's standards that is indie style film."
So then, are we to allow Hollywood to define what an "indie film" is? Should we allow them to dictate how much a film 'has' to cost to be created/produced?
Hell no! :/
"That is everywhere you look. Even at Pixar you have folks who simply do their job, they do it well but they are interested not in being in charge but doing a good job. I'm the creative force behind my movie, I'm the direction, they are the talent to help fulfill my vision."
You know what, though? As soon as other people start investing huge sums of money into your product, pretty soon THEY are also going to want to be 'creative force' - that's the nature of 'that' business (it's why the Producers/Exec. Producers in Hollywood have so much power).
"That is where we independents get to look for new horizons and ways of doing things to get our stories out to the public. We have to work outside the marketting system they have but we still utilize their methods but on a smaller and more creative scale."
Why do we have to utilize their methods at all? Technology and society are reaching a point where those methods are either no longer needed or no longer successful.
My belief on why such a talented and creative artist like Nibblelink could have possibly failed with "Romeo & Juliet" is not because he was outside the Majors' System or that he was a "One-Man Animation Studio", but because he relied on the using the same Marketing/Promotion/Distribution methods and systems that Hollywood uses: for the independent filmmaker/animator, using this System is FLAWED - it was delibritaly created and utilized to keep those who were not a part of the Mainstream Industry OUT OF IT (and it has been since the very begginning of Cinema). Moreso, the advent of technologies such as Internet, DVD, Digital Downloads, Mobile Media Devices, etc. has finally allowed Independents to bypass the Hollywood System entirely and directly deliver THEIR work to THEIR specific audence.
"I want to make an answer for all the folks who say "It can't be done" to know it can be done."
And you know who has already answered that question? Terrence Walker. M Dot Strange. Makoto Shinkai. Timothy Albee. Yasuhiro Yoshiura. Jason Wen. Phil Nibblelink. And countless others.
but because he relied on the using the same Marketing/Promotion/Distribution methods and systems that Hollywood uses: for the independent filmmaker/animator, using this System is FLAWED
I don't think he failed, he did accomplish what he set out to do but he will most definately have to start up the day job again.
I think marketting in itself is an art and like art itself there are tried and true fundementals but within the fundamentals of art there grows variations of that art. Within marketting there are many things still untouched especially for independent film makers.
Marketting is an artform, there are fundamentals to marketting that cannot be ignored. Just like art, even though you are stylizing or doing realistic there are still the 12 fundamentals of animation or proportions or movement, etc.
So you still use your base of marketting and you expand and become creative with it.
I'm not saying you need a million dollars to make a movie or to make a good looking movie. I'm just saying I'm using all the routes I can to tell a story from looking for the money to creating it all on my own using some of the shortcut tools like vue and poser.
But I will tell you a budget would help. I could only imagine what those individuals you named could have produced with even 100,000 dollars.
Money is what it is. You don't always need alot but sometimes it definately helps. None of us need much to make our movies other than 1 or 2 programs and determination.
You and I both are determined to do it and I support whichever way you go about doing it because your success is our success.
Shawn said : But I will tell you a budget would help. I could only imagine what those individuals you named could have produced with even 100,000 dollars.
No Shawn, It's not that straight forward for an artist. I believe there's two way to accomplish a commerical art project like animation,
1. The producer's way : From here, everything looks like managerial tasks. Collect resources and workers, put them into their places and follow the schedule to get it done. It's linear, comfortable and manageble. Like a producer will say to TW, you can make 10 mins of film of your quality in 6 months with $5000. I'll give you 6x5000=$30000. Find another 5 guys like you. Give me a movie of 60 mins within that period.
2. The artist's way : From here the tasks look unpredictable. The schedule is a fluid situation. The team of artist tries to maintain a vision and focus on their tasks. Their individual creativity conflicts, collaborates and finally blends in together to create a homogenous product. Like a band. The success depends upon how the chemistry is working. And how strongly they can focus on their work. Like an TW can create 10 mins of film in 6 months. But if he really enjoys the project and if he can focus his energy. He can push to 30 mins in that same period. It's absolutely illogical and outside the understanding of the other method.
I agree, indie animation is another way of production. But which way is it? What can it be categorised into?
It's not a religion, but is it a 'cult'? If it's not? What is it's identity? Why use the term at all?
Let's just say we are 'lurkers'. Trying to get into the feeding frenzy of hollywood.
There are many avenues through which an indie film maker can get his work to the audience, without for a second stepping into the border of the system. You can totally bypass the system and still come out with your head on your shoulder.
I agree with the concept of working on projects with smaller duration until you can gather enough funds to do that 90 minute feature that will take a ton of Quad core machines. Presently I pushed a feature down to the background because of complications in the pre production stage. The story is complex with so many characters that will feature prominently (approximately 25 major characters). It is a football movie which will involve complicated footwork (dribbling, passing,heading...etc. I discovered that I needed serious mocap to make it work and since mocap system is a tad out of my reach at the moment and renting a system will be more expensive than buying one, I opted for feature with less characters and a simple straight forward story. That's my current project at the moment. I will continue work on the football movie when I get my own mocap system.
There are some theaters that support indie films so you might want to hook up with them to premiere your feature. With a combination of the indie friendly theaters,DVD distribution through Createspace(formerly customflix)Amazon, filmbaby, digital downloads...one can easily bypass the 'system'. This of course requires a great deal of expertise and experience. Since a lot of indies suck (And I mean they really suck)at marketing/distribution, I suggest they team up with people who are very experienced in that direction.
Just wanted to add this to the mix
http://www.xombified.com/donate.html
If anyone wants to support him. He is both talented and has a quality product but he himself is looking for donations.
Finding funding is hard and going at it alone is hard. He is speaking from experience.
So if anyone wants to donate please do. I want to see a Xombie movie. All in all I think he has about 40 minutes of animation done already.
Shawn, that message is almost a year old. I don't think going it alone needs to e as hard as you assume it is. I also don't think James Farr is struggling by any means. With over twenty million downloads and a huge fan base, I think he is on the right path. This is from his own interview:
"Ooooh, lots of stuff. Most of them are in various stages of non-disclosure. Which is really frustrating because they're cool! -laughs- They just announced I have a 160-page manga coming from Tokyopop in April of next year. It's called EV. I have a couple scripts that are hopefully coming out from New Line and Dreamworks. Just a lot of stuff in the works. And of course we're always working on the Xombie movie, toys and this and that. There are a lot of cases where people are saying, "Oh! You have a comic. I guess you can write. Would you like to take this pre-existing brand and write a comic or adapt this screenplay?" So people are really starting to trust me with stuff that exists. That's really fun because I get to play with other people's characters."
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